Advice, and letting results speak for themselves

[Heidi]

This is something that's been on my mind for a very long time. Before anyone takes offense, it's not directed to anyone in particular. It's a tendency I see that I consider pretty harmful, and it's something equally important to consider no matter what path you are on, but especially if you are on a LHP, since the LHP is about self empowerment and finding your own truth instead of blindly following others.

In the years I've been part of the spirit keeping community, I've noticed this tendency for people to offer advice. This is obviously not a bad thing; it shows that the members of the community care for each other and are willing to help others. The problem however is that more often than not, people will offer advice that does not come from their own experience at all. As a random example, someone will post asking for ways to accomplish X thing (achieve lucid dreaming, get a promotion at work, protection, whatever) and people will eagerly come in and start giving suggestions. From the people offering suggestions, only a handful actually have personally tried what they are suggesting. As a more specific (but equally random) example, let's say someone asks about spirits that can help him get a raise. Someone will immediately jump in and say "red dragons are the best spirits when it comes to money!" for example. But the person doesn't have a red dragon. They have never worked with a red dragon. They are just rehashing something they have read, but in a way that makes it sound like they actually have worked with a red dragon to get similar results and they got what they wanted. Or someone wants to know how to achieve lucid dreaming, and 10 people will offer suggestions, but those 10 people have never managed to have a lucid dream. Again, they are just repeating what they have heard or read, but in a way that makes it sound as if they have accomplished it themselves.

Why do I think this is such a big problem? Well, it's because unless you have tried something you can't really recommend it, or offer advice on how it works. Unless you have experience working with a particular spirit, you can't go around talking about what said spirit can or can't do or how it should be treated, what it's like and how it tends to behave towards humans. It's very misleading, and people reading will assume you actually have personal experience when you don't and will take your suggestions seriously. And if 100 people keep repeating something when they haven't personally experienced it, newer people who try it and fail will assume that there's something very wrong with them. After all, 100 people got a pay raise after getting a red dragon, right? So they get the dragon and they don't get a pay raise, but in addition to that they suddenly notice how many of those 100 people who recommended a red dragon as the best spirit for more money and for getting a raise seem to have all kinds of serious money problems. And that's how many "this is all b*llshit" threads happen.

It's good that you want to help others figure out what they need, help them on their path etc. Before you give any suggestions though, consider whether you are the right person to do so, and whether your recommendations are yours, whether they are things you have personally found helpful or just something you read one times too many and you are just repeating it because if everyone says it, it must be true. Also consider whether you are exaggerating in the way you present your suggestions compared to your actual experience. You may be really grateful to your dragon/demon/angel etc for helping you find 5$ on the street right after you asked for more money, but unless you are homeless and haven't eaten in a week, it's probably not a miracle. If you post "a red dragon can make miracles happen when it comes to your finances!" just cause you found $5, people will assume you won the lottery, got a job with double the pay than your previous job etc, not that you found $5.

Some people have truly had miraculous results from working with magic or with a particular kind of spirit, and if you have experienced something you consider miraculous and you want to share it then by all means do so. This is how we learn what works and what doesn't. But don't post about supposed "miraculous" results that don't come from first-hand experience. They may be true or they may not be. They may be real, but if it didn't happen to you or someone really close to you, you don't know all the factors that contributed to the success, so if you make that recommendation to someone and they listen to you but after a while they don't seem to be making any progress, how are you going to help them figure out what they're not doing right? Or what mundane actions were needed for the results to happen?

Also consider that not every person is equally suited to work with every kind of spirit out there. When you get 100 people claiming that a red dragon is the best when it comes to finances, and that dragons in general are the easiest spirit to work with, very loving, very easy to bond with etc but you have had zero experiences with your dragons, or bad experiences with them, what happens then? Chances are you are going to feel like there's something wrong with you. Why would they not help you? Why can't you communicate with them, or why do you only have bad experiences with that species if they love and accept and want to help everyone? If the red dragon example doesn't help you to see how misleading this could be, then just consider how prevalent the opinion is that angels are all-loving and want to help everyone who asks them for help and how many members of this forum have had bad experiences with angels instead. It's just another thing being pushed on people just because it's a common notion. It's not the truth, it's not even all those people's personal experience, it's just something they are stating as a fact purely because they have heard others stating it as a fact so many times that they never thought to doubt it.

Let results speak for themselves. Let the spirits speak for themselves. Allow yourself to try something, test it, make adjustments to it if needed, and then talk about how it did or didn't work for you. It's much better than repeating stuff someone else said or wrote (no matter their expertise, it's their experience, it doesn't mean yours will be similar). This is how we grow. This is how we figure out what works or doesn't work for us and why. This is how each person figures out what their path is, what their blocks are, what kinds of spirits they work best with and what kinds of spirits they are better off avoiding. Don't rob yourself and others from a wonderful experience by taking stuff other people have said as gospel. Find your own truth, and both your life and the lives of those you want to help will be better because then you will truly be able to help them.

[User5191]

This. Is. Great.
It simply must be said. Nobody is an expert at everything, and expertise isn't gained in 12 hours. This is something each person should take into account. Likewise, if you don't have any experience, but are pukimg up others information, it's best to credit them and state to the reader that you're relying on others as opposed to your personal experience. It's really just common courtesy. Sadly, that's lost in the SK community. Thanks again for this PSA!!!

[User3246]

Yes...even if a person has experiences with a spirit or entity that work for them, doesn't mean that it will work for you! That person has different energies, different allies, and a different past! Sure, you can get ideas from another person, but to expect to be able to re-create what they have done? Not so easy! Look for repeatable works, solid and consistent growth from several different people before you trust a person's method. it does not necessarily mean you are doing something wrong if you cannot get the same results. People are DIFFERENT. Try a new method that seems to resonate with your energies. Don't be afraid to try new things and keep working on your problem areas. You will not HAVE to convince anyone. Results speak for themselves. Great post!

[Darth Moronius]

I assume this is from the other forum. If it's something from the chat, I'm out of loop actually..

If so, I see that the cause of this comes from newer members who are not used to navigate the forum, so that they ask questions that have been asked before in the old threads or in some articles. I find that some of the members there answer some questions by postings links to other threads, and indeed they are very useful to see what the "older generations" have experienced.

True, that the negative impacts are what you've mentioned. But there are also positive effects. One is that it keeps the forum active. There are numerous posts daily there as opposed to other forums with similar theme, including here. The chat here is very active indeed, but it is not feasible to retain information; I know this because I have missed many great information and stories from the chat due to computer malfunction.

Next is that it answers the newer members' questions relatively quickly. This makes them feel accepted in the community, as you mentioned, and also makes them feel that the forum is reliable to ask questions. They can post something today, and find answers the next days.

Moreover, it makes the "accepted general information" flowing to newer members. This in turn lets the owners and the experienced members not having to answer the same questions, because they have been "generally" answered. That kind of general information is not always negative, considering most members there, even some of the older members, are still struggling with communication. When there is a financial windfall, it is difficult for them to discern whether it's from the help of spirits, or spells, or just natural occurrence. It becomes more difficult when they keep many spirits and spells specialized in that purpose. So, if red dragon is rated the best in that forum, then let it be accepted that many older members there might have great experiences working with red dragon.

I think the "this is all b*llshit" threads happened mainly because of the expectation of the members. Some of the members still think that it's like genie in the bottle or I love genie. I see the rising number of those who believe that it's like anime or comic also there. It may be like that for some, but I think they will gain much benefit by reading this thread:
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[Heidi]

Oh it wasn't about something that happened and you missed it so don't worry

I'm not talking about offering general information. I'm talking about offering solutions presented in a way that makes it look like you personally tried it and you know what you're talking about when you don't. It's one thing to say "according to the encyclopedia" or "according to Akelta" and link the post, article etc. It's a totally different thing though when you post "red dragons are THE best when it comes to finances!!!" and you have never even met a red dragon in your life. It's one thing to say "I haven't personally had to deal with this kind of problem, but from what I know so and so spirit is good at that kind of thing so you might want to look into that" and it's a totally different thing to say "they are THE best for this kind of thing! Trust me when I say they'll resolve this problem of yours in no time!" when I have never experienced said problem or worked with what I'm suggesting at all.

I understand what you're saying about keeping a forum active and being able to find information later and all that/ But see, this is a benefit for the forum and for the people who want to feel that they belong somewhere. It's is not related to whether the info is right or wrong, whether they'll be successful in what they are trying to accomplish or not. If what you're looking for is to belong to a community then ok. But there are also the people who join because they are looking for a solution to specific problems, or because they want to develop specific abilities. And just because something may be generally accepted as correct or useful doesn't mean it is. It may actually have been useful in the context it was originally said, but taken out of context and presented as fact may have the exact opposite effect.

You mention how some older members are still struggling with communication. This is all the more reason for people to examine something before passing along the info. If you've spent years working on something unsuccessfully then when why make suggestions out of the methods that didn't work for you? I don't know about others by I personally would be more inclined to trust the suggestions from someone who used to have the same problem as me and managed to overcome it, not someone from who been failing at it for years. And I'm not talking only about communication here. I understand the need to form groups and bond with people who are in the same boat as you. It's human, it's natural, you want to feel less alone in your problems. But there comes a time when you have to consider that if you are going on the info of people who have been failing at something for 5 years then maybe you aren't going to go far on that info. Understand that I'm not saying this by guessing about who has experience working on their finances with a red dragon for example and who doesn't. I've spent several years in the spirit keeping community and there are many people who share freely what happens in their lives. When I see someone I've known for 5 years who when they joined, said they are sleeping on someone's couch and then 5 years down the line they're still sleeping on someone's couch but are offering advice on what spirits or spells can help someone with their business and finances (or in some cases, even offering to conjure such spirits for others or work this kind of magic for them) I can't help but cringe. I'm talking about this kind of blindly repeating something that you haven't tried, or haven't successfully tried, not general advice along the lines of " this and that is said to be helpful in such cases, and here are a few useful links that should help you with your situation".

There's a tunnel vision effect that happens when too many people who believe one thing to be true without having personally experienced it gather in one place. Every voice that says something different to what the collective believes in will be drowned out. And sometimes this can truly be physically dangerous to the person, depending on the nature of their problem. I still remember someone posting about how they is a very evil presence in their room, having blackouts and feeling something in their body, and looking for methods of exorcism and how I tried to help them, only to be drowned out by people saying "Magic works on belief! Just spray the room with water and BELIEVE that it will go away and it will go away! You can add some crystals to the water if you like, but ultimately, it's all about how much you believe in it!". From the people offering advice, no one had done an exorcism of any kind before. Now if it happened to be just negative energy or some naughty neighborhood spirit having fun then ok. But if this was a case of someone truly needing an exorcism, this is the kind of situation where the wrong advice can cause some serious damage, from the person ending in a mental hospital to getting himself and/or others killed. But whatever, someone said magic is all about belief so people just go around offering advice on how to do it using water and your favorite crystals. See what just rehashing advice about something you have zero experience in can do? And it's exactly the lack of personal experience in this field that leads people to think it's even a good idea to offer advice in something like that. If you haven't seen the kind of sh*t that can happen during an exorcism you think it's just another one of those things you can tackle with your minimum knowledge of reading about it in a forum or book.

Again, I'm not saying it's bad to offer general suggestions, quote other people who are considered experts in their field or post useful links, threads and articles. I'm talking about giving suggestions on something you have zero or very little experience in and making it sound like a fact.

I also understand that there are those who believe that magic works like it does in the movies or in comic books and anime. But to be honest, while it doesn't work like that, people have every right to actually want results within a sensible time frame. And if that's what they want and they are willing to work for it, and if they tried what was originally suggested to them with zero results, then they deserve a better answer than "have more patience" and "have more faith". There is definitely that camp of people who expect to get a spirit or a few spelled items and suddenly be able to throw fireballs to their classmates or something, but there's also this rising and very alarming tendency of people toning down what they expect from magic and spirits to such a degree, that to me it's not even magic anymore. Sure, by all means don't ignore the small signs when you're just starting out. But those small signs isn't all there is to spirits and magic. And pushing the idea on others that this is all there is to it just because someone else said so is as harmful as is pushing the idea that the moment someone gets a spirit or spelled item they'll be able to physically fly, lose 50 pounds and date a top model. If fact, it may be even more catastrophic than that. Cause if someone truly wants to look for magickal ways to lose 50 pounds or date a model, at least they'll gain some valuable experience and knowledge in the process. And if they are determined enough and willing to work on it for years and change their lives so that it is possible to even meet top models then who knows, they may even make their dream come true. Toning down their expectations to the point that magic looks less magical than everyday life though just because of other people's lack of experiences presented as facts won't.

[User5191]

And I'm still on board. I agree. I'm glad to see more reality check postings being made. It helps keep it all honest and keeps the train from jumping the rails.

[alikat13]

I agree to this...... okay I will admit that there were times in the past that I was like this by just reading from encyclopedias and hearing other peoples experiences but now I have my beings to teach me personally and to help create my own experiences with them~ I'll keep this thread in mind because I do tend to see lots of people do this on other forums

[Darth Moronius]

Oh it wasn't about something that happened and you missed it so don't worry

Okay
Although in the last seminar, I saw something called Black Court, but can't find them in the forum, so I thought it may be something from the chat. That led me to think that I have missed a lot

Agree with the rest, especially this:

There's a tunnel vision effect that happens when too many people who believe one thing to be true without having personally experienced it gather in one place. Every voice that says something different to what the collective believes in will be drowned out. And sometimes this can truly be physically dangerous to the person, depending on the nature of their problem. I still remember someone posting about how they is a very evil presence in their room, having blackouts and feeling something in their body, and looking for methods of exorcism and how I tried to help them, only to be drowned out by people saying "Magic works on belief! Just spray the room with water and BELIEVE that it will go away and it will go away! You can add some crystals to the water if you like, but ultimately, it's all about how much you believe in it!". From the people offering advice, no one had done an exorcism of any kind before. Now if it happened to be just negative energy or some naughty neighborhood spirit having fun then ok. But if this was a case of someone truly needing an exorcism, this is the kind of situation where the wrong advice can cause some serious damage, from the person ending in a mental hospital to getting himself and/or others killed. But whatever, someone said magic is all about belief so people just go around offering advice on how to do it using water and your favorite crystals. See what just rehashing advice about something you have zero experience in can do? And it's exactly the lack of personal experience in this field that leads people to think it's even a good idea to offer advice in something like that. If you haven't seen the kind of sh*t that can happen during an exorcism you think it's just another one of those things you can tackle with your minimum knowledge of reading about it in a forum or book.

I remember reading threads about this. I think the best advices from those threads mentioned to contact professional exorcists and practitioners. There should be some of them there, because there are many varied sellers regularly posting.

[Aprophis]

Although in the last seminar, I saw something called Black Court, but can't find them in the forum, so I thought it may be something from the chat. That led me to think that I have missed a lot

They are their own group and have their own shop, so there's a reason you won't find them in the forum and it's probably better if one stays away from them, from what I've heard.

[Darth Moronius]

Oh so it's about another company. i thought it's something from the spiritual world...
Thank you, Aprophis